Sunday, March 20, 2011

Vic and Melanie's Experience


In October, 2010, Frank Harder, who has been a good friend and employee for about eight years, came to me about something that had been troubling him for some time. He told me that Mike Sullivant had a meeting with him (the other person present was Gary Driedger) during which my and Vic's names were mentioned.

Sullivant had warned Frank in this meeting to be careful of his contact with us, warning him that he would become what he hung out with. He also told Frank how much we were tithing. Sullivant told Frank that I had other problems with the church as well and had been emailing them.

When Frank told me this, I was very upset. How many times had we been told from the pulpit that Sullivant never sees how much we tithe? This news went directly against what we had heard preached. I also wondered how Sullivant could warn someone to not spend time with me and my husband without speaking to us directly about any concerns he had about us. We never had a call or email about whatever we were doing that would have caused church leadership such concern. I would add that during the previous two and a half years when I was suffering at home alone with new allergies and chemical sensitivities and could not attend church, there was no offer of help or call made to me. I was so ill and troubled that I had lost nearly 50 pounds and became nearly unrecognizable to some people, but still I was alone. A few friends cared enough to encourage me and pray for me. I say all this to illustrate how I had struggled for nearly three years and did not know that I was looked upon in such a negative way as to be the object of the “like fellowships with like” warning.

But we were marked. And the trust was broken regarding the tithe. What a person gives to God is between him and God. Sullivant might not count the money, but the counters keep track so we can get tax receipts and, it appears, report to leadership.

When Frank told me the part of his meeting with Sullivant and Driedger that involved us, I told him right away that we couldn't hear news like this and not follow up on it, that we had to talk to Sullivant and couldn't do it without naming him. We know that Sullivant does not regard anonymous reports, but we would not name Frank without his explicit permission.

In about two weeks, we met with Sullivant in our home. He came alone. We had sent the children to play at the neighbour's house for the afternoon. When Sullivant arrived, we didn't beat around the bush, but came straight to the point. Vic said to him, “Did you tell Frank how much we tithe and that he should not be around us, to be careful who he hangs out with?”

Sullivant appeared surprised when his eyes got big and he leaned back in his chair. He responded, “No, I did not. Did Frank tell you this?”

Vic: “Yes.”

Sullivant: “Call him in.” Frank was working in the shop, so Vic went into the next room to call him from the cell phone.

Meanwhile, I said to Sullivant as he sat across the table from me, “Frank has worked for us for many years. He is like family to us, like a brother. He has been loyal through some very difficult times here when others might have walked out. He is human, yes, but has never given us reason to doubt him.”

Sullivant's words were, “And I have?” There was no opportunity for me to reply because Vic and Frank walked in at this point. When they were seated, he turned to Vic and said, “Ask him.”

So Vic did. Frank's reply was, 'Yes, he did say those things about you.”

Sullivant turned to Frank, pointed at him and said, “You are lying!”

Frank held his ground calmly and said he heard what he heard, that he was telling the truth. A brief argument followed between the two, during which Sullivant called Frank a liar a number of times. Frank remained calm during this. Neither man conceded. Since Gary Driedger was present at the meeting with Frank, Sullivant called him on speaker phone and that conversation went something like this, after preliminary chit chat:

Sullivant: “Gary, I've got you on speaker phone. I am at Vic and Melanie's; Frank Harder is here too. I have been blind sided here with the accusation that I told Frank about their tithe and that he should not hang around with them. Is this true?”

Gary: “Absolutely not. We never said anything like that. Their names never even came up at that meeting.”

As the phone conversation went on, Gary repeatedly said that he couldn't remember what exactly was said, but knew which things had not been said, the end result being that both pastors concluded that Frank was lying. The phone conversation ended, and some other matters were discussed in front of us regarding Frank that should have been done in private and were completely unrelated to the matter at hand, the reason we had called this meeting. I believe that this was done to throw in a red herring, to distract us and to cause Frank to lose credibility in our eyes. It was a complete change of subject, with Frank being the object of attack. When it appeared that Frank and Mike were at a stalemate, I asked Frank if he wanted to add anything and he said no. He was dismissed.

I said to Mike, “We are in a very difficult position here. We have to choose between a loyal friend and a pastor.” He said he could see that. I reiterated that Frank had never given us reason to doubt his word. The words Michael Sullivant said next were, “Look at my track record.” At another point during the meeting, he confidently said, “I am innocent in this.” We made no indication at that meeting where our loyalties lay. Now I wish we had made that clear with both men present. We already knew what our decision would be before Frank left the room.

I asked Mike, “Do you mark people by name, telling them not to fellowship with someone?” He said no, he never does that unless it's a church discipline situation. I also asked, “Do you keep track of the giving?”

Sullivant replied, “I never see a record of the giving.”

Both statements were directly contrary to what Frank told us.

The phrase “Look at my track record” was one that echoed in our minds for weeks as we did exactly that. We looked at Sullivant's track record objectively. This was our thought process after our minds quit reeling: Why would Frank lie about what was said about us? Did he stand anything to gain or lose by telling us? Did Mike stand to lose by admitting he had told someone how much we tithed? What could Mike stand to gain by calling Frank a liar, by trying to make him lose credibility in our eyes? We compared the two men who both said the other was lying to the account in the Bible in which Solomon was faced with two prostitutes, a dead baby and a living baby. Solomon said to cut the living baby in half so each woman would have a share in the living baby, and the mother wept while the lying whore agreed to halve the infant.

The following Sunday we were in church and sat with Frank and his wife to show our support for him publicly. I went to one more Wednesday service after that where, incidentally, I witnessed another character assassination, but that is someone else's story to tell.

Proverbs 26:28
A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

A statement that we can not forget from one of the last sermons we heard from Sullivant was, “If you have a problem with this church, you have a problem with Christ!” Our problem is not with the church as a whole, but with the leadership of it. As we looked at his track record, we observed and considered seriously other incidents we knew of involving him and saw a pattern of behaviour that was disturbing. The common threads in the situations over the last years were pride, lack of accountability, and deceit. We read the constitution of the church and knew that there was no accountability for Sullivant if he did wrong. We had heard an unbalanced number of sermons about pastoral leadership and obedience to the pastor. Understanding that we were not significant enough to bring about change, we communicated clearly with the pastor our reasons for leaving, followed the constitution and hand delivered our letters of membership withdrawal to the church at the end of November.

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


323 comments:

1 – 200 of 323   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Amen!
We also experienced Sullivant in his office where he yelled "Are you right with God?" to which was replied, "As right as I can be at this time." To which Sullivant screamed, "Do you tithe?" while he pointed his finger directly and kept yelling, "Do you tithe?"
We never believed it possible to experience and witness this side of our Pastor.
Thank you very much for telling the truth.

Anonymous said...

When did this happen?

Travis said...

Thanks for sharing!

...mous 6:38 PM
When did this happen?

Who are you asking?

Laura Sullivant Sterk said...

My husband and I would like to say a huge THANK YOU!!! Vic and Melanie!!!

You sharing your story on this blog WILL help others to see the truth about what happens behind closed doors.

More people need to cast aside their fears of this one man and come out and tell the truth.
The Bible commands us to rebuke a fellow brother/sister in Christ. (to not do that is sin.)

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a bishop/pastor/reverend/etc. is exempt.
In fact,they are held to an even higher standard.

Don't be surprised if you experience TONS of ridicule,but stay STRONG!

James 4:8

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Anonymous said...

When did this happen? Meaning, when did this happen.
1995? 2001?

Melanie said...

The meeting with Sullivant was on October 29, 2010.

Rebecca Harder said...

Thank-you Melanie for sharing, for your courage and I hope others will see the truth because of it. Praying for you,

Rebecca

Anonymous said...

Frank has always told the truth... ha ha ha, Two people (Pastor and assistant pastor) held in judgement aganst one person (never lying nothing to gain bitter little Frank).... hum, I wonder whose side you will choose? Steel is not the only thing that gets fabricated around there.

Evelyn said...

There's a quick way for Vic and Melanie to know 100% for sure if Frank is lying or if the pastor is lying: tell the amount of money that was tithed. If the amount matches what Vic and Melanie gave, well, they have their answer.

Melanie said...

Evelyn, the pastor did tell Frank the amount of our tithe.

Anonymous said...

Pastor was right about one thing. You will become what you hang out with. It seems clear that those who are close with pastor seem to become more like him. Open your eyes people! Can't you see the pattern forming? All these stories have ONE common denominator. Do you think all of these people would just make all this stuff up? Pull your heads out of the sand and open your eyes to what is going on around you.

Anonymous said...

Maybe question Frank about his loyalty! When he gives you his answer than ask him again. Ask him until he tells you for real where his loyalties lie. Dare ya. (I know something you don't know do da, do da)

Anonymous said...

The previous post (12:13 p.m.) merits absolutely no attention. You sound ridiculous... there is a difference between "then" and "than" and your unchristian attitude shows through loud and clear!

Anonymous said...

yes, I see a pattern forming everyone is telling the same story as the person before them.

Those who don't get their way are mad at the pastor, and those that are happy to keep serving through the church are not liking being called puppets. This is not about a pastor abusing people it is about selfish people not getting their way.

I'm have notice many people leave the PVBC and they all say the same thing."we didn't get our way with the leadership so we're abused"

GROW UP

try telling the owner of the business you work for that he's abusing you if you don't get you way. Try It

If I have my heart right with God then I don't ever have to get my way. You should try to follow God not your own feelings for a change.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to me Gary could NOT remember what got said in a previous meeting, But clearly remembers what did NOT get said.

Question??? How can a person remember what didn't get said, if they can't remember what DID get said?

Sounds like an Oxymoron to me.

Anonymous said...

To: 1:50
It is not about people being mad about not getting their way or not following God. It is about a pastor telling lie after lie, and never taking any responsibility for his action. You still are not listening, I told you to open your eyes!

Anonymous said...

So did you actually tithe or do you make that little?

because after you left the church the Giving went up. I wonder how that works

Open my eyes and prove something. would you like to have everyone in the church know what you give or would that be embarrassing.

Shooter said...

I opened my eyes, and found that the Bible is what I am to base my belief on not your opinion.

Spiritual abuse is opinion. based on the feelings of a person. I wonder where the Bible tells us to go by our feelings.

Anonymous said...

Melanie,

we only have your word on it.

NO PROOF

Anonymous said...

What proof do you need? If proof was to be given, could you handle it?

Or accuse them of "Frabricating" that too?

Anonymous said...

To Shooter:
You are right, we are not to go on our feelings. Where in your Bible does it say that your pastor can lie, and share confidential information, and that his followers should believe him right to the bitter end, no questions asked?

Anonymous said...

Thank you Vic and Mel for sharing your experiences at pvbc Ive been waitng a long time to hear another case like this. You see your not the first ones who this has happened to, there are many more likemanner cases. I have NO doubt at all that Frank is telling you the truth. I can honestly say this because I know first hand what happens at pvbc. I have collected the offerings, counted the offering, and seen what goes on with the offerings first hand with my own eyes so I dont need anyones opion, I KNOW IT. This is only a small piece of the DECEITFULL WEB' that has gone on at pvbc.For those of you not familiar with what pvbc stands for it is Pembina Valley Baptist Cult. Ya you read right I said CULT, because I know first hand what has gone on from the beginning and is still continuing on. It may have started of as a church but has LONG since turned into a self manmade destruction center. I have work beside Mike and his puppets for many a year in a leadership position which has brought great revelation to how things operate there. This is why I can Honestly say I trust no one in any Authoritative position at pvbc. Mike has deceived ,lied , manipulated ,and brainwashed many people in his reign at pvbc. Oh sure things might start out great with them helping you out at first, but the I OWE YOUS last a lifetime.omething I refer to as BONDAGE. I have followed Both this and Lauras blog for a while now and feel that its almost time for me to come out of the woodwork. INFO BREIF; I knew all this 15 years ago but no one gave me the time of day. Maybe now some might want what I call THE REST OF THE STORY.

john and heather dyck said...

the BIBLE says by their "fruits you shall know them" actions ALWAYS speak louder than words and MS's actions DO speak for themselves (and his cohorts) we totally admire you and Vic standing your spiritual ground and for telling your story.

eye opener said...

ir·ra·tion·al   
[ih-rash-uh-nl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
2.
without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
3.
not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.

Frank Harder had/has a lot to lose by telling the truth, by letting this story go public.

His brother Bill Harder as all but "divorced" his wife's family because of their disagreement with Mike & their belief that PVBC is a cult.

Frank knew he could lose his brother by the truth being told, this to me is reason enough to believe he is telling the truth. Why else risk losing a brother?

I gave the above definition to define Bill, his entire wife's family has seen the truth and given him ample reason to at least try and look at things objectively, now his own BROTHER is involved in one of Mike's biggest known transgression and he still is unable to recognize truth.

His unmistakable comments on this blog, Laura's and his own blog http://truestoriesofchickensunchained.blogspot.com/ is a classic example of how badly someone can be brain washed and truly deprived of human decency and love.

Anonymous said...

Did you ask Frank where he was on Remembrance day yet?

Shooter said...

Well Bills in-laws are in the Seventh Day Adventist cult, no wonder he has nothing to do with them.

I see were they could disagree with the PVBC.

Has anyone been healed over the phone lately?

Franks other brother think he loopy too, so Bill don't compromise I support you. Keep telling your story

Anonymous said...

"Well Bills in-laws are in the Seventh Day Adventist cult"
- LIE

"Has anyone been healed over the phone lately?"
- Referring to something that happened years ago with a friend in a different denomination? (NOT SDA)

"Franks other brother think he loopy too"
- Which ONE of his other 3 brothers? How many siblings have seen the truth in that family as well?

So Travis was Calvinist, the Elias' are SDA... seeing a pattern here? (the pattern of LIES)

Shooter said...

I see how it works now

If you attend a IFB Church you are blind and as soon as you leave you are miraculously healed from your blindness and automatically enlighten to Spiritual things. you no longer need rules or standards you can do what you want to. And if someone does not agree with you all you have to do is call out "SPIRITUAL ABUSE" and all the enlightened hoards will come running to your aid.

And if a family member should wander off into sin all those that stand for righteousness should be tracked down and ridiculed publicly until they come DOWN to the rebelous sinners level.

Oh how I hate liberalism and the stupidity it brings with it.

Anonymous said...

@ Shooter

And to you, you would love to stay in legalism???

Pick your poison,I guess

Who told you what was liberal?

Mike Sullivant

Who told you that all of us are lying?

Mike Sullivant

Who tells you how to mis-interpret the Bible?

Mike Sullivant

Hmmm.....

Legalism...How I hate the stupidity IT brings.

Anonymous said...

"If you attend a IFB Church"
- no, just one that is lead by someone who scripturally does not meet the pastoral qualifications & has all the definitions of a cult.

"you no longer need rules or standards"
- not ones that are man made and put people in bondage.

"family member should wander off into sin"
- Please name the sin. Please point out the biblical way of dealing with that sin and family member.

"ridiculed publicly"
- So you're the victim now?

"rebellious sinners"
- Based on the bible or your leader?

I hate how legalism has found its way into Church and community and has ruined families, relationships and good people.

The Eldest son of a Godly man said...

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
I guess both sides would like to claim this verse. Persecution comes from taking a stand for what is right and true. As was already stated in the OP, the only option that was acceptable to Vic & Melanie was for my Dad to admit guilt, even if it was not true. That goes against 1 Timothy 5. If you have a heart for the Lord, why not follow the Bible way?

The context of the above verse is very helpful in understanding what brings persecution (in this case my Dad is being singled out & persecuted)

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
On this blog and others, we have people gossiping about PVBC and yet, they (not all, but more than one) believe that you can lose your salvation (Gal. 1 has some very "harsh" things to say about people who tamper with salvation and we should have nothing to do with those people); they actively sought out people to leave the church with them (Rom. 16:17 applies here); they lived openly sinful lives (lying and slandering and in some cases even lives of fornication and that is why you have church discipline - it's in the Bible), etc.

One of the things you won't hear on here are the stories of those who listened to the lies of Dell, Laura, Travis etc. and at one time, left PVBC, BUT HAVE COME BACK! Praise the Lord! I trust that in the future many of you reading this will also come to see that living by the Bible instead of feelings is not always easy, but it is pleasing to God.

This is all about yielding to God's Word instead of personal preference & personalities. God's Word says (according to the story in the OP) Lying lips hate those who are afflicted by them. That is right. This blog is all about destruction of a man and a ministry. This is not about love...

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
In today's thinking, We don't like doctrine (teaching), we definitely don't like it when the preaching of the Bible reproves our sin and corrects us. But that is what we need. That is what you get at PVBC as well. Is PVBC a perfect Church? No! It has people in it who are at all levels of growth in Christ. Is my Dad perfect? No. He is a man. But you don't have to go and try and destroy him for it! Let me just say it, He is a man who is seeking to teach, reprove, rebuke, correct and exhort with all longsuffering within the cover of the Bible.
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain" - we need to die to self and obey His Word.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Bill - we asked your brother Frank where he was on Remembrance Day. He was in Winnipeg at a "Rich Dad Poor Dad" seminar By Robert Kyosaki at the Holiday Inn.

Those scary seminars that are not approved by your worshiped leader...

Anonymous said...

is that what he's saying?

Travis said...

MS Jr.

Are you saying it's a sin to ask a pastor to explain his position on pastoral authority?

Are you saying it's a sin to question a pastor's motives when he says one thing and does another?

Are you saying it's a sin to expect a man to come clean when he makes a mistake?

It is for these things that we are condemned by PVBC folks.

There is definitely something behind the veil.

Travis said...

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Modern Church Outcast said...

Travis,

You never questioned Pastor Sullivant you just tried to lead others away from the church because you think you know better then everyone, you were a deceptive wolf.
You and others that think you know more then what the Bible commands should be marked and avoided.
You have chosen to live in your own self righteousness, believing only the parts of the Bible that you want to and leaving out the parts that you disagree with. That is opposite of what the Bible teaches (or don't you believe that part of the Bible either?).

Read the New Testament. The Pastoral epistles were given from one preacher to another commanding the younger pastors in how they are to lead their churches. Oh, do we avoid that fact because that means that a Pastor has the authority to command how the church is to be run.
At the PVBC there is a voting by the membership for all the major decision. But if they were to have the Pastors make all the decisions they would not violate Scripture. Deacons were brought in to serve the people's benevolent needs not to dictate what the pastors preach or teach. Now because of our humanism we want to have a say, we want to feel like we are in some form of control. That's why our churches are in such a mess, because people want to get their way.
I will gladly attend the PVBC for as long as they preach the Scripture with no reservation. I will also do my part to search the Scriptures to make sure that I understand what is being preached and that it is so.

How many people are being saved on a regular basis in your church? I mean real conversion like the ones at PVBC. I dare say that most of the the people that hate Mike Sullivant and the PVBC live very spiritually oppressed lives, this blog prove that they hate a brother in Christ yet they say they love Christ. GOD calls you Liars.

May God have mercy on you for what you are doing. It is a fearful thing to be in the hands of an angry God.

Anonymous said...

Do you guys actually believe the bible.

WOW

Anonymous said...

We have all fallen and come short of the glory of God, the responses that i hear from avid pvbc church-goers is that everyone else is wrong but them, even though there are sooo many people here that share the same expieriences about the heads of the pvbc. Not one of the blog memebers has ever written or disclosed or implied that they were perfect and did no wrong. I hear alot of accusations coming from pvbc members who write on these blogs that everyone here lies and are working overtime against the word of God, why don't all the current pvbc members who write here just dig a little deeper into what we are talking about and find out for yourselves.

I do agree that some people who have left the pvbc have lived somewhat spiritually oppressed lives after they left, only because of what has gone on behind closed doors and has/is being kept secret from the congregation.

For you to tell us that God looks down upon us in anger for sharing our expieriences and helping one onother through our spiritual struggles tells me that you need to keep searching your soul for the truth. God has shown himself to these blogs over and over again, i firmly believe that God is working efficiently in our blogs and groups, and i hope that more pvbc church-goers will take the leap-of-faith to investigate further for themselves and not just go by hear-say, ask God to reveal the truth to you.
oh, yes i almost forgot, since i don't have any of the listed id info, this was written by; Larry Joseph Brownsberger

Melanie said...

To The Son of a "Godly" Man:

Do not assume to know my heart.

Do not assume that any opposition is persecution. Read the article on this blog entitled "Wise Sons and Scorners". You have placed yourself above rebuke, which is a lofty, proud position. I do not pretend to know your heart, but this conclusion is easily drawn from your comment.

Anonymous said...

I would like to set something straight here with the pvbc member who wrote the comment about us thinking that we know more than the Bible, first of all, speaking for myself here, any and all knowledge of my faith comes from God, the Bible(king james version for me) is Gods word on which i base my spiritual walk and faith in my Lord Jesus Christ. Second of all i do believe i should be marked and avoided by most people who attend the pvbc because they have not come to the spiritual realization what God is really about, Jesus Christ died for "ALL" of our sins not just some of them. The only people that i can think of that you might be talking about are the heads of your church, these people i believe think they know more than the bible does, now that does make sense. If the pastor is in accordance with God and his teachings yes he does have the power to conduct how his church is to be run, but only if it is in accordance to God and his teachings.
If he is out-of-sync with God and his teachings the congregation should step in and correct this problem , but as i "KNOW" of how the pvbc is run and operated this cannot happen even if the pastor is "NOT" in accordance with God, because if anyone was to speak against the pastor in anyway, shape,or form, they are either heretics, blasphemers, or posessed with some form of demonic being/force. So in turn the pastor of the pvbc is
literally "untouchable" by anyone except God himself. I don't know about anyone else here but to me this sounds alot like a cult, atleast in the heirarchy. If i am wrong, please enlighten me to your versions of the truth, i am always willing to listen to what others have to say. ..... signed: Larry Joseph Brownsberger, ps; any and all pvbc goers who read this, tell my sister Kathy Hildebrand that i won't stop fighting and praying for her and her children.

Concerned Person said...

It is truly amazing how it can be that all of these people are lying against this "man of God", and yet he remains above reproach. Come on... There comes a point at which you must ask yourself, "is there something to all of these people's experiences with MS?" You may think that you are going against God to ask questions of your pastor or to think about these things, but it is quite the opposite. God made us to think on our own and not to simply be spoon-fed our thoughts from the pulpit. You may say, "well I studied everything that was preached and I agree with it." To this I say, Excellent! Now how about looking at what is going on in the lives of those that are preaching His word. God holds preachers to a higher standard. Surely their lives should be reflecting the goodness of God, purity, and truthfulness.

Think! Research! Pray! And then think and pray some more!

I know it puts a knot in your stomach to think that the pastor that you have held so dear for many years may be doing some questionable things. I was in your shoes too. But given all of these accounts of good people having horrible experiences with MS, you MUST act. You have to find out if this is true. And unfortunately this may mean that you need to speak with someone that MS has commanded that you not speak with. Think about it. First he kicks them out and then commands that you cannot speak with them or you will suffer the same punishment. It's quite the convenient way to keep his side of the story the only one that is heard.

All I ask is that you think and pray about these things. If indeed your conclusion is that MS has done no wrong, then so be it. But can you truthfully say that you have heard the other side of the story?

Blainer said...

"One of the things you won't hear on here are the stories of those who listened to the lies of Dell, Laura, Travis etc. and at one time, left PVBC, BUT HAVE COME BACK!"

Like a dog to his vomit...

Anonymous said...

To Michael Jr.

To probably don't realize how you have made a point for those who have left PVBC. At the time Laura left you were just a teenager. At the time that the Dells, Rempel's, Bartz's, ect., were church disciplined you were still a teenager. You were not on the pastoral staff. You were not a deacon. You have not had contact with the families that have been church disciplined. So the "lies" that were brought to the attention of the pastoral staff and deacons, you were not there to hear first hand. How do you know these people have lied? You admit to not having anything to do with them. You can only say, I have heard these "lies" directly from my dad. That is hearsay and gossip.(Yes, even if you hear if from the pastor.) That takes away your credibility as a witness.

Anonymous said...

This message is for the cookie cutter boy better known as MWS.SR son . Do yourself a huge favour by not walking in your fathers footsteps, Ive known you since a child and always new you wanted to be like your Dad. However, you dont need to trust me but I think You may be bitting off more than you can chew. When most of this first originated you were still young and inicient and I would hate to see you get caught in your Dads web. I Was down this road your travling and IM knonw as the Pioneer. I have WAY TO MUCH INFO, Remember Im the one with whom this all started . 15 years ago no one was ready to listen , but now they are . Ill ask you yhe same question as I did your dad. So many questions out there, so many answers I HAVE , whatever shall I do. Just check your sisters blog . You know who I am and soon others will too.

Anonymous said...

I have a problem with the sign that I read outside of Pembina Valley Baptist Church. It says "We are too blessed to be depressed" As a devout Christian that has battled with depression for the last 20 years, I am offended by this. Depression is a mental illness, not a decision I made because I think I am not blessed. I am blessed beyond measure, and still battle with this disease. Just a thought.

Looking for answers said...

Okay Blainer...why don't you be the first to share with us your story of why you left and then went back??
How and why did you leave?
How and why did you return?

Sue said...

What character assassination in a church service Melanie? I never heard a name mentioned. Here's the deal: If I go to a seminar at a Mormon church that is conducted by someone who holds to Mormon teaching and teaches those doctrines in the seminar and then I myself start practicing those Mormon doctrines and sharing it with others, don't be surprised if a warning is put out that someone is spreading false doctrine. I should not be surprised if people claim I'm not invovled with the Mormon church. I may not have joined the Mormon church but that doesn't mean I'm not involved in its false doctrine. That is what happened. Since when is a pastor not to warn about false doctrines/cults. There were NO NAMES mentioned during that church service. Go get the recording and you will hear no names mentioned. Therefore no character assassination. He was warning of false doctrine that some people were starting to follow. I would suspect the same warning would be put out if I was spreading false doctrine to others and bringing it to the pastor. He was warning the rest of the people that these doctrines are false. If people knew who he was talking about then that is the risk a person runs by getting involved with a false doctrine and sharing it with people. You won't want to believe what I've said but that's ok. You are entitled to your opinion on the subject. I'm sure you felt it was character assassination because you knew who was invovled in the false doctrine.

Anonymous said...

So I see that as long as we have the Baptists around in Winkler with their narrow-minded and uneducated view about the cause of depression, we will not be successful in getting rid of the stigma of depression. The sign for all to read at Pembina and first is blatant judgment, extremely disrespectful, and non-healing.

Anonymous said...

Sue: so out of the vast number of churches just in winkler and morden, what you're saying is is that every other church except the pvbc teaches false doctrine. correct me if i'm wrong. Why is it when someone who is a member at the pvbc wants to switch to a different church because he/she isn't getting the spiritual nourishment that they need there, that it becomes an issue of heresies and cults, and even demonic forces at work. If i am not spiritually fulfilled by the church i am attending then i would leave to find one that can suit my needs. Signed: larry joseph Brownsberger

Eldest son of a Godly man said...

uummm, I voted in the church meetings as an adult because I was 18-19 at the time all that was going on. It may have started before that time, but I went to my Dad about Dell before my Dad ever went to the church about him. My Dad did not "clue me in" to Dell, my conversations with him and the classes he taught were enough.

Anonymous said...

a friend who came back from Cambodia last year, relayed a story of how there was a festival being held and it involved thousands of people crossing a certain bridge. As they were crossing someone said, Bomb. A stampede ensued and dozens were killed with hundreds wounded. Were they killed by the bomb? No, there never was a bomb, just the word and a stampede.
Just a thought.

Sue said...

Larry,

Nope, not what I said. I did not say that every other church besides PVBC teaches false doctrine. It is not about someone just wanting to switch churches. The specific warning was about a very specific false doctrine. Not a random warning about "all other churches in the area." I did my own studying about this false doctrine before it was ever warned about in church (due to family member's involvement)and believed it to be false before ever warned of it at PVBC. But then again, I guess different people can have their own idea of false doctrines. Sorry you misunderstood my comment.

Anonymous said...

@9:39... Why are you not just coming out with all your information? Everybody is waiting to hear the truth! Please share!

Anonymous said...

We will not be silenced any longer and at the appointed times ALL will be revealed.

If Sullivant thinks this will all blow over and go away, he's got another thing coming. This will not stop until he is stopped.

This is only the begining! So,lets just enjoy the ride, shall we!

Anonymous said...

A word of caution to those still attending PVBC:
There will be subtle, phycological, manipulation tactics in the preaching at PVBC in the next while because of these blogs.

You will hear things like:
Choose the church, or choose the way of the devil. Don't choose family over scripture...etc.

As if to make you think...by choosing anything else than siding with PVBC, you will be on the devil's side. And that is NOT true. God isn't just at PVBC.

Some people know how to manipulate minds, and are very good at it. Keep your guard up for this type of mind-washing. Keep your heart loyal to Jesus, not to a man. God will lead you to truth if it is his will.

Laura Sullivant Sterk said...

Brother...oh brother!

As I said in one of the emails to you, is there ANYTHING that you say is a 'lie' that you can prove OUTSIDE of having your father say it is a lie??

None of your nasty emails to me proved it, and it's more than obvious that you are enjoying the bashing of FELLOW CHRISTIANS on here because you have chosen to join in.

How is what you are doing(actions,words,etc) going to bring others back to Christ?

Is that not what we are commanded to do by GOD??

Is that not what the act of so-called 'church discipline' is for? To have someone reach the end of themselves and WANT/NEED to come back to God and HIS church??

Or is this whole 'church discipline' just a very convenient way of discrediting the innocent and preventing others from hearing BOTH sides?

It tears my heart up to see how cold and heartless you have allowed yourself to become.

Just because a MAN has so much control of a church,doesn't mean that it is God's doing.

Just because we are good at hiding our true selves behind closed doors doesn't mean we are 'right with God' or even a 'Godly man'.

Oh, and thanks for throwing the whole 'living in fornication' thing out there.
Yes Michael....Pretty-well everyone knows (especially those that read my blog) that my husband Jason and I lived together prior to getting married.

Is being unforgiving also what you and your father are teaching your followers?

I 100% believe that we should have rules and standards,but I want my children to have a HEALTHY fear of myself and their dad...not a fear of total rejection and SHUNNING for the rest of their lives!!!

I am sorry that so many people like you and your father so easily trample on the hearts and souls of the innocent with a cloak of so-called 'Christianity' over your shoulders.

May God shower His mercy on you when you see the error in your ways.

And may it not be too late.


http://laurasullivantsterkmylifeunchained.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

atten 12;23 There's a time and a place for everything. If everyone is truely waiting to hear the truth I will need to see it. For 15 years I have patiently waited for Gods people to see the light and realize the truth. I would have been happy for just one to be searching for the truth, only to no avail. I havent given out the MEAT because Im not sure your ready for it. There are still so many out there battling over foolish issues that it makes God sick and its labeling christians as FOOLS. People its time to grow up, there are lost souls out there and and we've got christians fighting over skirts . I bet all the non church goers and all the unsaved reading these blogs must think your all NUTS. If this is what church is about who wants it, Im sure glad Im not God and having you promote me to others , Id have no friends. Ya Im the Pioneer and I have the truth and there are those of you out there who know me and know I have it but Id be a fool to share it with Imature Christians. I will share it when Im good and ready to do so. Power in the hands of a fool is a horrible thing , Just look at PMS . Im smarter than that, This is a man whom wishes He never knew me, and KNOWS I have the TRUTH. AWHH ALL IN GODS TIME. God is patient and mercyful even to a sinner such as you PMS. Try HIm; I did.

Blainer said...

How come some who frequent these blogs are so UPSET that PMS is getting reviled and persecuted (for righteousness' sake, obviously)? Did not Jesus say you are BLESSED when persecuted? Where is all the REJOICING and EXCEEDING GLADNESS that should come from being so richly blessed with persecution? Just think of all the Heavenly Reward Points that are being racked up! For being so blessed, you sure sound depressed.

Stay tuned to this channel, there will be cause for much rejoicing and gladness ahead.

Anonymous said...

Blainer since when do you care what someone other then yourself has to say let alone Jesus?

Wisdom said...

Blainer, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." Prov26:4

That is not an applicable question anon5:28

eldest son said...

Proverbs 9:6-8
6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

This will be my last post on here for the above reasons, and I have better things to do than argue with those who ignore scriptures. I do not mean to sound better than anyone, but really, noone on here seems to care who they join together with, so long as they hate PVBC or my Dad. If you look at the doctrinal divides, you should never be cheering each other on. As I said in my first post, Doctrine divides. we have different doctrine...

Anonymous said...

Ok Mike Jr.
This has nothing to do with Doctrine so don't hide behind that and use that as a way out. This is about your father and the lies and deceit and the hurt that he has caused the very people that he was trusted by. The people that the Lord trusted him with. I understand you trying to protect your father but one day you will realize the hurt and anger that he has caused many people. The experiences being shared by people that have been lied to and accused of things that weren't true are only beginning. There are members of PVBC that are asking very strong questions and they are expecting answers. They are frustrated and angry because your dad just sarcastically brushes it off and hopes that it "all blows over". These people aren't going to accept this. The hole has been dug for many years. People are starting to help each other get out of that hole. And once we reach the surface you know who we will be going after. That's right your dad will have to eventually answer the very questions that he has side stepped for years. All he had to do from the beginning was have accountability and transparency at PVBC. But instead he had to have full control and be secretive when he should have been honest. I see what is happening all over the world to dictators that try to control the people that believe in them and trust them. I can honestly label your father as a dictator. And all dictators eventually get taken down!

Anonymous said...

Michael Jr., you might not post again, but you will surely follow this blog and Laura's very closely.
Just like many, many current members of pvbc, regular attendees, members of this community, family and friends, past members etc... the list goes on.

Anonymous said...

different doctrine....

1 Bible.

weird.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Lots of People are watching this blog.

But the people of the PVBC have gone through this kind of stuff before, some selfish people that could not get their way crying that Pastor Sullivant is a Dictator. Bro. Benny Beckum told us that the church was going to see some really strong attack from Satan because of the decisions that were made at our Prayer Conference. I see what he was talking about.

And yes I do believe that many of you because of Bitterness, selfishness and downright SIN are being used by Satan to fight against God. thats right against GOD not Mike Sullivant.

For those who are truly searching for the Truth. Truth is not found here by these people it is found through rightly dividing the Word. Gods' Word(The Bible)

Anonymous said...

Different Doctrine? How about you all go check the pvbc CONSTITUTION Article 1V #3 "The personal right of interpretation of the Bible and the competency of the individual soul in direct approach to God". We all have the Bible, but its up to us how twisted we wish to interpet it. There is no right of personal interpetation at pvbc, the pastor has already done that for you. Its not about hating PMS OR THE CHURCH, its about hating the sinful behaviour, deceit,manipulation,lies,prideful hearts,false accusations of others rather than those Himself,dis-respect of others, Family devider, Control Freak,False representation of scriptures, shall I continue? But remember what do I know ? As mentioned in Lauras blog I only have dirty laundry and feed out my crumbs with those whom eat at my table. You see Ive been around the block a few times, most of you dont even understand your constitution, or realize how your trapped by it when you allow yourself to stay in that kind of enviroment. Some of you will grow to love me, and others will be like PMS and wish that he'd never met me. Mike this is baby food you gotta be able to do much better than this with all the teaching you've been given. But then again its hard to when you;ve been brain washed. Your Dad should have done a much better job of doing away with me years ago. Pioneer telling you all for your own welfare look into things and know what your into. AND to all of you pvbc goers dont even waste your time messing with me I worked with PMS and many of you for years, you honestly dont even want to get me started in this. Who better to know how things are done and what things have gone on than someone who worked next to PMS . Face it the truth will come out.

Concerned Person said...

To Anon 8:33 AM

Why is it that you and others at PVBC do not even acknowledge the poor behaviour of your pastor? Closing your eyes tight does not make it untrue. I know that you do not want to believe the accusations at hand. You want to assume the best of your pastoral authority. I understand this. Been there, done that. I truly did not want to accept that fact that he was the cause of all this trouble. But what if you ARE under corrupt leadership. How would you ever know if you don't even try to figure out the truth? The Bible is the book we live by, but you must have common sense about people's actions. "By their fruit you will know them."

I realize that this is most likely falling on deaf ears. But just know that I pray for you. I pray for all of those at PVBC. I pray that God would enlighten your hearts and keep you strong in the Lord. I pray that sin would be exposed. I pray for the truth to be revealed.

Search out the truth!

Anonymous said...

I am not a Sullivant supporter. I'd like to see him have to take ownership for his actions.
But even I'm getting sick and tired of all this cloak and dagger routine.
If you have information that can stop this behavior from continuing, then show it already.
The Pioneer? Step up and show your cards. Enough of the drama and smoke and mirrors. If you have something, please just get on with it.
And if you aren't willing or able to show it, be quiet about it.

Anonymous said...

Let me ask ALL of you Baptist haters.

How many people have you led to Christ in the last year?

By thier fruits you shall know them.

Anonymous said...

perhaps you should look at the label you give yourself?
By stating you are a "baptist" you take away from the cause of Christ.
How about being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ? Not of a man, or of a building.
The majority of people outside of pvbc live their lives to witness to others. It doesn't have to be a scheduled block of time on Saturday afternoons.(which church leadership doesn't even attend)
I'm sure that it's hard for someone deeply ingrained in the pvbc ways to understand that someone that isn't a member can possibly be saved or share the gospel.
It's shameful the acclaim involved at pvbc in witnessing. Give the credit to Jesus!!!

Anonymous said...

I said."baptist haters" not non baptist.

I know many great people who are not Baptist and lead many to Christ.

I am a Follower of Christ and a Baptist.

Anonymous said...

Galatians 5:22....the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness and faith, meekness and temperance....(KJV).

Yes, surely when we display the fruit of the Spirit we will also be a witness for Christ and bring others to salvation, BUT, please don't brag about how many people have been saved through your witness - that is being vain, seeking self-glory. God is looking for evidence of fruit, not numbers. Also read v.26..."Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

Please, commenters, let's help this situation by being peacemakers...that's means lovingly, but very firmly standing up for what is right and moving forward until it's resolved. Speak only when the Holy Spirit directs you; He will guide you to be effective, not harmful. Pray for Pastor Sullivant and his whole family. This can not be resolved without hurt (on both sides) but please listen for the Lord's direction; we are created in His image and were made to glorify Him, not bring Him shame. That goes for both sides, as well - everyone created in His image. Lord, give us wisdom in this difficult situation.

Anonymous said...

If you don't like the Baptist Church Go to a church that you can like and be the best Christian you can be.

otherwise shut up and leave the good people of that church alone.

They do more to build up peoples Spiritual walk with Christ then most of the other "feel good" churches around.

So don't claim that you are close to God in all of this.

wisdom said...

To: Anon 10:57am

"...and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" Isa 64:6

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt7:21

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:22 & 23

Are you incinuating you are better then me because you have more notches on your belt of souls won in the last year? Tisk, tisk! Typical Baptist, it's all about numbers for you isn't it?

"Boast not thyself of tomorrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth." Prov 27:1

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:7

Anonymous said...

Oh, So it is about the Baptist Church.

Each one of you have your own agenda.

you all sound like a bunch of people mad at their bosses because he didn't give you what you wanted. boo hoo hoo

Go do something with your live other then try to destroy someone else's.

Shooter said...

Have any of you read Proverbs? It's in the Bible and it talks allot about many of you there.

Faith said...

I think we're getting warm. Someone is running out of steam. The old "you people are just mad cause you can't get your way" speech is loozing it's fizzle.

Little does this person know, that it's not about us getting our way. It's about justice. It's about the innocent that have been hurt, and it's about protecting others from getting hurt.

Anonymous said...

Shooter,

Oh, I'm sorry! Is someone feeling "ATTACKED"?

Shooter said...

Should I feel attacked?

You people have been attacking people your whole lives. What a sorry existence.

You should try spending your time helping people grow in Christ. Instead you spend your time tearing others down.

Anonymous said...

As Christians are we to seek justice when we are hurt? Is a public forum where we as Christians are to seek justice? Are we to "warn the others" about the pain that was caused us? I'm just asking...not attacking. What scripture should we follow in these situations? I'm not talking about seeking legal justice for physical injury or other crime.

Laura Sullivant Sterk said...

Just so that everyone knows...Pioneer HAS brought more info to the table. On my blog.

HOWEVER, there has been a new disturbing twist in comment form on my blog...

According to a comment @ 10:56am,one of my siblings wants to leave but is afraid of having the same thing that happened to me,happen to them.

I am asking for prayer for this sibling that God will give them strength as they go through this.

And that there will be someone that will see whichever one it is and help them escape!


http://laurasullivantsterkmylifeunchained.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

I am good friends with one of those "souls that was won" by PVBC. This person was converted, and on fire and excited about God.
Then after two weeks this person was informed that unless they ceased to participate in a list of activities (none of them were broke the law or were incredibly immoral, many were gray areas of the faith.) that they could no longer be friends with the "soul winner" and were no longer welcome.
What a way to treat a new believer! Much of the "soul winning" that goes on pushes people away rather then drawing them closer!

Anonymous said...

Just like your good friends with one of the Sullivant children? What a joke

Shooter said...

OK, we get it, the Pioneer does not believe the PVBC covenant. Now that's damaging info.
I don't think I will ever attend that Church again.

Can we say STUPID.

Anonymous said...

To Laura,
Has anyone seen Tom Cruise, This story would make a great plot for mission impossible, or what was that other spy show? O yeh GET SMART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

If your employee would admit to lying would he still have a job?

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:34

They may loose their job but if they come clean they will keep their integrity. The employer may have mercy on that employee and forgive them. But if they continue to Lie to cover it up then that employer should fire them for Lying. Ones corrector and integrity is far more important the then ones pride.

Anonymous said...

RE:SHOOTER; BILLY,BILLY choose your words wisely . YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHOM YOUR DEALING WITH HERE. Your pridefull spirit will knock you to the ground as well. Ive been around for way to long, your sarcasim shall bring you to your knees. Pick a fight with someone you can handle. You have much maturing to do befor your ready for me.

Anonymous said...

Laura
Warning: Pioneer has nothing of substance. Be very wary of this person. Don't trust him. He is just stringing you along. See Shooter's comment:
"OK, we get it, the Pioneer does not believe the PVBC covenant. Now that's damaging info.
I don't think I will ever attend that Church again."

Anonymous said...

If your employer (PMS) would admit to lying would he still have a business?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who has more to lose.

Shooter said...

Well Billy I don't think this Pioneer could find it way through anything. They at least can't find their way through the first round of a spelling contest. So much for their quality of research.

Keep trying(Pioneer). your proving my points for me. and Yes I do know who you are and your just a puppet of Satan.

Nick said...

http://clayinthesovreignshands.blogspot.com/

Rebel Child said...

OK, All you parents out there.

If you have ever yelled at you child, pointed you finger at them for being rebellious or had a rule that your child disagreed with. Then you should step down, do the right thing and let your Children run your house. Or you will be the next Dictator we will take down.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:33 PM.. can you please share what those activities were that your friend was supposed to rid themselves of? I'm a non Baptist who desires to know more. thanks.

Jason Sterk said...

To: Rebel Child

Your sarcasm makes me sick! Why must you take everything OUT OF CONTEXT?

Nobody said that you should step down as a parent if you have yelled at your child, and to let your child run the house.
The problem is when someone is yelling and pointing their finger in your face for something you have NOT done. I have never remained quiet when accused of something I've never done. I will bark right back at you no matter who you are.

Please use some common sense when posting.

Anonymous said...

Rebel Child, I think you're on the wrong blog.

In Your Face said...

Shooter, try re-reading your comments before you post. You're one to complain about spelling when your own comments don't make any sense.

Shooter said...

case in point

Rebel Child said...

Oh, Did I get on a sore spot.

I thought that this was what we do here.

It's a great place to feel the fires of hell.
oops, I mean the peace of Freedom from Authority

Faith said...

Anon Mar23 5:25

"To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Prov21:3

You bring up a good question. I believe the bible has alot to say about Justice. And there is a big difference between sitting back and walking away from a fight. And standing up for what is right.

Let me ask you a question. Let's say you're driving down a gravel road. And all-of-a-sudden you drive straight into a deep mud pit. The person you care most about is on their way but are not aware of the danger ahead.

Now, what would do?

Are just going to wait til your friend catches up and joins you in that same pit? Or are you going to quickly jump out and warn other people of the danger?

What do you think would be the right thing to do?

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." Ezekiel 33:6

Anonymous said...

politics, merely politics. He said/she said.

Heb 4:12 said...

Melanie, Sounds like you are bitter because no one was concerned when you had health issues. How would you like to be invited to someones house and then be blindsided with hearsay that is not supported, but actually refuted.

Do you know what the word tithe actually means?

Heb 4:12 said...

I find it interesting that so much to do is made on a blog where the creators themselves say in their mission statement "some factual errors may occur." Sounds like reliable sources.

Heb 4:12 said...

"by those that have influence over others spiritually."
You are so worried about people having a bad influence over others spiritually. What do you claim this blog to be doing? Are you not influencing others spiritually here? Whatever happened to the Holy Spirit's guiding? Why do we need you to tell us what is wrong? You are right about one thing, these stories are emotional and that is what is the problem - going by your feelings and not the truth.

Melanie said...

Heb 4:12, you are entirely missing the point of why we shared our experience. I shared about my illness to show how I was not aware that we were seen in such negative light and then MARKED as people to not spend time with.

We wanted you to see that TRUST was broken. The man who told you he never sees your giving, doesn't know how much you give, doesn't keep track of giving - however he states it - IS LYING. DON'T GET SIDETRACKED.

What I say may be refuted, but is that rebuttal TRUTHFUL?

If you have only the TRUTH to tell, you are never blindsided. Sounds like you have spoken to the man your self. If he only had the truth to tell, he would not have needed deacons beside him. If he only had the truth to tell, he would not have needed to prepare a statement for us.

Yes, I know what the word "tithe" means. That isn't the problem here. The problem is this:

WE WERE LIED TO. AND SO ARE YOU.

Anonymous said...

SORRY SHOOTER for getting back to you so late. I needed to go back and edit all my spelling mistakes . I guess I should be more carefull for criticics like you who cant see the trees for the forest. Folks like you are are prime examples of ignorant, brainwashed, androids; which blindly walk into fires only to get burned. Then for calling me a puppet of SATAN, well if that is whom I actually was, trust me you'd diffinetly be in a fight you couldnt handle. There will come a time that you wont be able to hide behind PMS AND YOUR PVBC. I wont waste me time on deaf ears like yours but I did want you to know something. Although I'm not SATANS puppet You can be sure of one thing, my effect on what is going to take place will take you on a ride that you will have wished you stayed off of. If you really want to get into this first grow up, do your research, Try and find out whom your dealing with, and realize that I've been around for a long time. PMS and I go way back. You werent even in the picture when most of this started or ever involved to the deepths that Ive been. Oh ya MIKEY KNOWS ME WELL. Even he would tell you Im to MUCH FOR YOU TO HANDLE. Your statements will let me know when your ready, besides you have family matters to attend to. The PIONEER wont stop until the work is finished. I have more and more people contacting me everyday. There is well over 100,000. people waitng to hear what I''ve got and trust me I WILL TALK. and it might just be SOONER THAN YOU THINK.

Anonymous said...

There doesn't seem to be much value for those of the LIGHT to keep disputing with the scoffers and scorners. These big-mouthed people will not be stopped except for God's intervention. Just keep sharing the TRUTH in LOVE!

Anonymous said...

I would like to make a point to the PVBC members.
I have been seeking the opinion of other Godly people regarding all that has come to light. I have showed the blogs and shared other stories that I have heard first hand that have not yet been posted anywhere. All the 'outsiders' that I have been seeking advise from can't believe what is going on here.
My Question: Why can everyone on the 'outside' see what is wrong with this situation, while most people on the 'inside' seem to think that the actions of their pastor are justified?

Lets not forget that many of the people that have been shunned and have left were good Christian friends to many of you for many years. Then, they were marked by one man, and you all turn your backs on them.
Why would so many Christian people be saying the same thing about one person? Because it's TRUE!

Trust me the proof is out there. How much proof do you need when so many are saying the same thing. If this many people identified a man that robbed a bank, you would all agree that this must be the man who did it. But because the accused is a pastor, the accusations can't be true? You pastor is still a human subject to sin. If the Devil wants to tempt Christians, can you imagine the temptation a pastor must face?

Think about it, pray about it. You will see the truth.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it. PVBC and its pastor have been criticized in Winkler for a long time. A lot of the criticism is unwarranted. An example is the Baptism issue. Immersion is biblical but many in the area have been sprinkled somewhere else. Accusations and gossip are directed toward the church unjustly over this issue, and the membership at PVBC grows unified behind the church and the pastor.

Now when there are serious issues and much support behind the accusations presented lately, the membership has a hard time believing them because of the many times the community has "cried wolf" before. Maybe the baptism issue was a bad example, but you get the point. Just because Sullivant has been vindicated in the past doesn't mean that he is right in these issues.

Anonymous said...

10:09pm you said, "Lets not forget that many of the people that have been shunned and have left were good Christian friends to many of you for many years. Then, they were marked by one man, and you all turn your backs on them."
You don't have a clue. They are not marked by "one man". The only reason people are "shunned" as you put it is because they have done something that is in direct violation of Scripture and after being privately shown from the Bible that what they are doing is wrong, they continue in it. That is when they are marked. It come from the Bible, not "one man". The pastor is simply doing his job. You have no idea how hard it is. You think they are the only one that hurt. What hurts us is people willingly continuing on in their sin. It is out of love, biblical love, and that is why you cannot understand that. You make it sound like as soon as someone is "shunned" that they are immediately hated by the people in the church. You are wrong. Doing what is best for people even though it hurts is what love it all about. And before you go and say that its not what is best, read your Bible, the whole council, not just what will suit your agenda.

unbiblical shunning said...

bible references to shun:

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Yup, that's it. one verse. There is one more verse that has the word shunned:

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

(talking about shunning something, not SOMEONE)

So there goes your biblical basis for shunning fellow Christians based on the bible.

THIS is what the bible says on how to treat someone who is church disciplined:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I hope you do not treat non-christians with the same attitude as you treat ex-PVBCers (a lot of who are NOT church disciplined).

Shooter said...

unbiblical shunning,

Are you telling me that thats the best study you can do?

Glad your not my Bible teacher.

Anonymous said...

The word "shunned" is not mine. It is what people on this thread keep calling it. Church discipline is biblical, like the reference you gave. Not sure what your point is.

Heb 4:12 said...

Melanie, Is Frank the one that told you how much you tithed?

Heb 4:12 said...

2:21 pm Mark them that cause division and avoid them, this book is set in the local church setting to the church at Rome.

Anonymous said...

It's amazing that the only ones talking about shunning are the ones that feel they Shunned.

Separation try looking into that Doctrine

Melanie said...

Heb 4:12, yes he knew. And he heard it from the pastor.

Anonymous said...

http://www.biblicalevangelist.org/jack_hyles_story.php

This is a must read for all members and ex members of PVBC. If this doesn't open your eyes then nothing will. I read this and it explained everything to me and opened my eyes to the truth. It also helped me realize what has to happen at PVBC. It's not the church that is the problem. I love the church. It is the leadership. Right from Pastor Sullivant right down to the custodian have to go. The Dictator and all his enablers must be asked to remove themselves in order for this ministry to heal and have a chance to be a light in the community. I know I will no longer attend until this is taken care of.

Anonymous said...

11:53 How deep have you looked into church disciplined members? I will fill you in with some first hand experience. Yes they are at first "marked by one man". It all starts when PMS feels threatened by this individual{s]. As soon as someone challenges PMS with a situation, if PMS feels threatened he will request and enforce church discipline.I know this first hand because Ive seen it happen. PMS does this so that he can hide his sins, if someone trys to go to him about a situation in a Biblical fashion , He makes sure to mark them and church discipline them before they get a chance to do something about it. See this way No one will listen to these people because now their not right with God anymore. BY THE WAY YES I DO KNOW HOW HARD IT IS. How can someone warn fellow believers when they aren't able to talk to any one {I CALL THIS SHUNNING}. If you call this being whats best for people for it shows your love for them, then maybe I need to show my BEST LOVE for PMS. You see I knew when PMS was planning on dealing with someone before it every got mentioned to the church. PMS and I worked very tight for several years and he confided many "situations" with me. I always knew who was next in line for the CHOPPING BLOCK. You may try and fool others but I WAS THERE directly involved. Thats something not just anyone can say. All of you PVBC people just keep on trying to justify this man,however Ill set all your stories straight I know this man better than most of you ever will. I guess to sum things up it looks like I will need to church discipline PMS, Will that be showing tough love .I can honestly say that I dont believe He has Biblically disciplined anyone since the church started. If so Id love to know who. Amazing who all has this done to them when he feels their a threat. The PIONEER will not be quiet people need to hear the truth

Anonymous said...

Pioneer, are you Laura's grandfather? a deacon that has left the church? there is one other person who comes to mind but he is still 'loyal' to the church.

Anonymous said...

Pioneer Was that when you were the employed there? that would mean that you are a coward and some one that can't be trusted. Because you have violated the confidence of those that you were suppose to minister to.

Nice Lyle or should I say Helen because she still runs the roost.

WAGON BURNER said...

Pioneer PLEASE!!! Tell another Story

And since none of you know the simplest Bible Truth. Then I will start my own fable about what I know about all of you.

And remember, I am someone to be FEARED. Don't even try to go against me because you have NO IDEA WHO YOU'RE DEALING WITH.

I am the WAGON BURNER

Anonymous said...

Do you always refer to yourself as "the Pioneer"? If you no longer attend and have anything to do with that church, how do you know what is going on there?

Anonymous said...

Anyone who has followed along KNOWS the pioneer is not LOYAL to pvbc, however I am LOYAL to 'the church'. Just as the info I have is relvealed slowly, so will be my identity.

Anonymous said...

Religion/relationship....

What is going on at PVBC or Sommerfelder, Bergthaler, Reinlander, all has to do with religion. Years of traditions and customs. Why is it sooo hard to simply have a relationship with Christ ? Does our loving heavenly father care if women are wearing pants in church ? or the piano or drums are played ? He loves us where we are at no matter what or how we come to him. It is that relationship with HIM that he desires for us. Rules and regulations are for cults.

Danselle said...

@ mous...25 March, 2011 6:10 PM

Hahaha you think my mom or dad posted that? They wouldnt post on here. They know its useless to talk to any of you puppets. Nice try though.

Anonymous said...

Im sure Lyle and Helen Nuefeld are flattered 6:10 . Tell me Helen do you run the roost? 6;10 I see your still doing Mikes homework for him, how much did he offer you this time? WAGON BURNER catchy, I think I might just LIKE YOU. I can see someone like you going places, If your ever in need of a job look me up I might just have something for you!!!!! 7:23 who ever said I no longer attend pvbc, All I said is the PIONEER is not LOYAL to pvbc. Then again who ever said I still attend pvbc. It sure must suck feeling like the rest of the people who are only LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH. Tell you what Ill give you a clue . ITS ME!!! ooppsy I spilled confidentual info.

Anonymous said...

I can just see PMS NOW $%%#$% Deacons get me the name of the PIONEER NOW!!!!Keep it coming PIONEER We are all listening. Please continue with your revelations we are all starting to see the real PMS for what he is.

unbiblical shunning said...

"Mark them that cause division and avoid them"

Love this verse! Who is causing division? (dividing families, friends & Christians) Mike Sullivant.

What is the mission & purpose of this blog? To warn people about a man in authority who is CAUSING division!

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

&

Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

These 2 verses get greatly abused by men like Mike, these are not talking about Christians being divided, its about non-Christians/Christians.

Shun
SHUN, v.t.

1. To avoid; to keep clear of; not to fall on or come in contact with; as, to shun rocks and shoals in navigation. In shunning Scylla, take care to avoid to avoid Charybdis.

2. To avoid; not to mix or associate with; as, to shun evil company.

3. To avoid; not to practice; as, to shun vice.

4. To avoid; to escape; as, to shun a blow.

5. To avoid; to decline; to neglect.

Is that not what is happening to these families?

FYI, that was not my bible study, it was the conclusion of the bible study that I did on my own, when's the last time you did one?

So I started searching for this doctrine of biblical separation. I know we are to be separate from the world. The word separation does not appear in the new testament.

Here are the verses that the word separate appears in the new testiment:
Mat_25:32; Luk_6:22; Act_13:2; Rom_8:35; Rom_8:39; 2Co_6:17; Heb_7:26; Jud_1:19;

Not once is it talking about separating from fellow christians.

Then there are these verses:

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Is this why Mike has to lie about people's beliefs? So you'll latch onto these verses and claim that person is a heretick?

The bible is very clear. If someone is teaching heresies (ie. Mr. Elser) you should reject that man and his teaching.

If a fellow Christian is "In a manner violating law and good order; in a manner contrary to rules or established institutions." (from Websters dictionary) then you should withdraw yourselves.

Many ex-PVBCer's would gladly be back in that church if there was godly/biblical leadership & leadership accountability, these people are not hereticks, disorderly or in contrary to what the bible teaches.

Maybe its time for you to do some studying.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like Helen and Lyle must be another couple thats a threat to PMS. Id love to hear their story. PMS sure has a lot of 'ghost from the past' that are coming out to haunt him.

Anonymous said...

I know lyle and Helen personally . Lyle knowledgeable , Helen well lets just say id hate to be the fool who'd get their A__ __ kicked by her!!!

Danselle said...

For those of you looking for their story you can contact them. Just ask PMS where they live. His soul winners avoid the block they live on like the plague.

For those sincerely wanting to know, look them up in the phone book.

Anonymous said...

what i find interesting is that for those of you who have been church disciplined,arent the pvbcers to shun you? If so why can they communicate with you through this blog? I see Them all shun you up town but they sure have something to say to you on this blog site. Im not involved there and would personally be embarrased to be associated with them. Im glad my church doesnt teach this garbage. I know some of these people and think there lifestyle is a much better example of what a true christian is all about.Shame on you baptist people you already have a bad name how much worse do you want it to get? No wonder someone like Pioneer is speaking out , who ever you are keep up the good work. It really doesnt matter who you are I wish more people would stand up for the hurting ones out there . Remember your all children of God and NO MAN can pluck you out of his hand AMEN.

Anonymous said...

All you PMS worshippers would have to do is pray diligently that the truth would be revealed to you and it would be, you are so busy defending him you aren't even open to anything else.
That precisely is wear the words "cult" and "brainwashed" come into play.

Travis said...

Let's try something fun, shall we? Why not get together with Bible believing friends tomorrow morning and sit so that everyone can see each others' faces. Have the children sitting with you.

Try to come to a consensus as to what passage or topic to discuss (Amos 3:3)
Let everyone speak candidly about what they believe about it. (2Pet 1:20, 2Pet 2:1-10)
(If the kids are getting bored, chances are most of the adults are bored too.)
Share and bear each others' burdens.
Share the responsibility of singing and praying together.
Eat together.

Concerned Individual said...

Amen to “Unbliblical Shunning” comment. Right on.
The kind of church discipline and separation that happens at PVBC is NOT Biblical. The “fruit” or results of this practice has not once been successful as far as I’m aware of. By successful, I mean that the person repents and reunites in fellowship. Perhaps we need to question our methods?

The act of church discipline is a pretty good intimidation tactic from someone in “Authority”. It’s saying, “You better not mess with me”. If things were done Bibilically, the person in question should be brought in front of the church to defend his side of the situation. But no…that would be come a “messy murder”. They way it’s done now, is like a clean inside “hit job”. Get rid of them quickly and quietly. Don’t communicate with them anymore. Why? Lest you hear the other side of the story!

Then there is the act of “shunning” or “separation” that happens at PVBC. No, it’s not the grand act of “church discipline” but it’s something we can ALL participate in! Think about it people…search your hearts and your motives. When your brother/sister in Christ starts to irritate you, they learn something about you (that you didn’t want them to know), or you just plain don’t like them anymore, what a convenient way to get out of an uncomfortable situation! Of course! We’re taught a solution to that problem…separate from them! It’s great because it makes YOU look “righteous” and the other person look “bad”. You can’t fellowship with that Christian any longer because you are moving towards God and they are moving towards the Devil. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

I don’t want to see PVBC or MS taken down. I do challenge those who are still in the fold to consider this side of the story. The possibility that these blogs are a consequence of years of things “done wrong”. How can we say persecution is a “consequence” of sin for some people, and for others it is a consequence of living “the Bible way”?

I would also warn those serving as deacons, SS teachers, or in the music program. Keep your eyes wide open. Don’t be loyally blind. Although, maybe things will change now that there’s been a lot of dirty laundry airing. Hopefully.

There would be a magnificent revival at PVBC if leadership would humble themselves and admit to years of mid-judgement. It might turn the reputation of this church around! Pray for Pastor Mike Sullivant.

Nick said...

"The “fruit” or results of this practice has not once been successful as far as I’m aware of. By successful, I mean that the person repents and reunites in fellowship."

Good observation. You would think by doing things the Bible way that the results would be good at least some of the time. Does anyone know of someone who was disciplined that was restored to fellowship?

http://clayinthesovreignshands.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

Reminder: People, we should be mindful of how we say things...We are not here to sling dirt! If you have something to say that is of value, say it..it you are just here to antagonize and hurt. Really I am sure you have much better things to do with your time..
Every time I read here, I feel more and more sorry for some of you, you lives are so unfulfilled that you waste time (better spent looking for positive outlets)ranting about what?
The reality of it is: Things are not as they should be at PVBC. I have myself been there and enjoyed the message, but am wary of a leader that is not approachable, and not open to the wisdom of others. (being a pastor does not make you infallible and above all others) Only ONE has that distinction.. An open, honest and approachable leadership in needed to further God's ministry..Secrecy and deceit has no place in God's house!

Anonymous said...

Alright, it is time to post a glimpse of our story. We too were marked after we started seeing that some things just didn't sit right. As many have said earlier you cannot truly see what really is wrong until you are on the outside looking in and then it becomes VERY obvious VERY quickly. We were not church disciplined but were definitely shunned by church & family members. We did our research and went back quite far because we did not want to just believe anything we were told. I really do not feel it would be edifying for me share all the details but if you want to know just pray, keep your eyes open and ask questions. There are many other stories out there just like ours.

We learned many things while we were there and would not be where we are today had we not have gone there. God had his purpose in having us there for the time and then he had us move on. The greatest thing we have learned since is not to put our faith and trust into any one man whether at pvbc or anywhere else and learn to search things out for ourselves and look to God for our answers. God ordained the family before he ordained the church. He is our sole authority not any one man(as the constitution states - and we studied that constitution - that is where our eyes "began" to open)

Now, with that said, I do have to say how disapointed I am with the way this whole blog is being handled. There are Christians on here that are evidently not acting like Christians (definition of Christian is little Christs)Are you little Christs as you post? With the language and lashing out at people in anger on here I wonder how many truly are little Christs. I am not judging, only God should do that but I do ask you to examine yourselves and truly pray about it before you post your comments. With thousands of people reading this blog I have to wonder how many are not Christians and who never will be as a result of the attitude of the Christian as seen right here. Let us watch what and how we post.

Anonymous said...

Why would a person return to a church after church discipline when they could just go to another church in today's society that tells them their behavior is ok, the leadership has no right to do that to you and judge you (because the Bible says we are not to judge), we accept you and your behavior no matter what because we will never tell you that your behavior is unacceptalbe?

Anonymous said...

Psychopath: "A personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct but masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal... charming, attractive liars... leaders of religious sects or cults... covet possessions and power... lying, deceiving and manipulation are natural talents." Wikipedia.

"... not having a conscience, no feelings of guilt or remorse, no concern for the well-being of strangers, friends or even family members." The Mask of Sanity.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:44 PM:

Jsut because some churches in winkler let anything go, does not mean that pvbc is right in shunning people for any reason they want. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Anonymous said...

"Travis said...
Let's try something fun, shall we?...."

Your ideals will not work now, did not work 10(?) years ago, and will not work. Remember you tried that already with no results.

Anonymous said...

To 12:44:

I don't think the other churches would tell people that their sinful behavior is okay (at least they shouldn't), but there are churches in Winkler that will accept you and welcome you no matter what you've done because that is the Jesus thing to do. They will not tell you what you should or shouldn't do but allow the Holy Spirit to convict you and work in your heart. Hopefully the Christ-like truth and love and grace they show will speak to a sinner's heart and help him see his need for a relationship with God.

Anonymous said...

to 25 March, 2011 10:23 PM
"Many ex-PVBCer's would gladly be back in that church if there was godly/biblical leadership & leadership accountability, these people are not hereticks, disorderly or in contrary to what the bible teaches."

I have personally said the previous statment many times and have heard others repeat it.

About the church constitution and membership.
I was saved during a service at pvbc. I was then contacted at work by church leadership, 3 days later to encourage me to get baptized. Being a very very new Christian, I didn't even understand what baptism meant. I even made a comment to church leadership that I would like to be baptized privately with only my family and close friends. To me, that would be a red flag to leadership that I didn't understand baptism. But I received no teaching or counsel at that time. But I got baptized because that was what they told me to do.
I was told after the fact that I was a church member and I could vote on business matters etc.. I had no idea that by being baptized by pvbc, that I was automatically made a member. I never received rules, constitutions, info, statement of faith etc.. In fact, I didn't know that they existed at that time.
Come to think of it, I still haven't received my baptism certificate. Although, it is a useless piece of paper because I don't believe I was scripturally baptized because I only did it because of the encouragement of leadership and not as how the Bible teaches concerning baptism.

And only after leaving pvbc did I realize that I worshipped a man and a church and not Christ as He intended. I know without a doubt that I am saved and I cannot lose that.
My relationship with God has been damaged. Any thought of attending any church again fills me with panic and fear. Yet, I know HE is here with me and hears my prayers.
People who were my best friends instantly removed themselves from my life, even though I didn't express my feelings about pvbc and its leadership.
People are hurting because of what Michael Sullivant has done and taught. Please keep those of us that are still hurting and trying to heal from the damage that was done in your prayers.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting your story Melanie. I can only imagine how hard this must be for your family. I have to agree with comment march 26th 12;28 Many of the comment made on here do not seem very Christian. We should all watch our words. They can be so destructive. Im sure there is a better way to get your point across that does not need to be nasty. I do hope that if three is more people with stories to share, that they will come out and the truth will be made known. I have watched my family worship Pastor Mike for many years! Im not saying I would want him destroyed. Just admit that he is human and capable sin. Thanks again for those who have come and shared there experiences.

Anonymous said...

Is no one reading March 26, 4:14 PM? The personality traits mentioned there are the same traits displayed by someone we know well.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Sullivant would be the first person to tell you that he is human and makes mistakes just like you and me.He does not want any of us to worship him.As he always says he wants GOD to get ALL the GLORY for all the good that is happening at PVBC. And yes the LORD is truly using him .!!!! I am grateful for a pastor who has a heart for people.

Anonymous said...

Anon @March 27 11:00 PM

Well, he has a heart for most of the people anyway.

Anonymous said...

Only his favorite people.

Anonymous said...

That's funny. I told him he made a mistake and he denied it ever happened. Oh, I guess that makes me in the wrong then. Even though I was right. I'm used to the way this plays out.

And yes, a heart for some people. I'm sad that some of my friends who still attend there do so and don't really know what the church leadership really thinks of them. How would you feel to find out that your child or brother or sister is talked badly about or told they can't serve because they have some sin in their life. My question, which one of us, which one of THEM doesn't have sin in their life? WHO DECIDES WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AND UNACCEPTABLE SIN FOR SERVICE??? Don't even argue with me, 'cause I KNOW it's true. I've seen it over and over again.

Like some of you I was once a blind follower. I thought my pastor could do no wrong and that if he ever came under fire I would burn for him and deny all and every accusation, but after my own experience that delusion I lived in came crashing to the ground.

I have some very serious questions I need answered, but in so doing I would have to reveal names, and even though I'd love to I can't bring myself to do it. Not that I don't have the right.

May God bring healing to those who've been hurt so much.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. said...

and may God spank those on the bum who need it, all of us at some time, most of you all the time

Anonymous said...

5:50

Well, seeing as we haven't been spanked on the bum "all the time" maybe you need to talk to God and tell Him he should be doing his job better seeing as you know more than He does.

Anonymous said...

Does Pastor Mike sanction comments like "Heb 12:6" 5:50 pm?? Wouldn't someone with a mind like that be afraid of church discipline?

Hope said...

People are also told they can't serve God and will never amount to anything because of their LAST name.

The last time I checked men and women were called of God not man and, I really don't think it makes a difference to God as to what a person's last name is.

God will use the "Chiefest of sinners".

Anonymous said...

This is something I noticed while attending there as well. When someone was under church discipline, (which was constantly) on Wednesday nights members would pray for satan to have his way with them to bring them to their end so they'd return. I'm not saying that's completely unbiblical, I'm just sad that they're so quick to want to see hurt or punishment fall. Consider yourselves when dealing with others. They know what you're thinking and what you're saying, and I wouldn't want to come back to people who wanted bad things to happen to me either.

Next time you start praying for the devil to get someone, perhaps pick up the phone and call to tell them you love them first.

Anonymous said...

Just a question where is Gary at now? an dwho is the assisatnt pastor now?

Anonymous said...

It's funny how many pvbcer's have commented on here lately, just to let you pvbcer's know(if you don't know already) Helen Neufeld is my sister and i don't take kindly to having my family bashed especially when i know how they live in accordance to God and his teachings, I left several years before helen and lyle finally found out what the truth about pvbc was all about, we have rectified our indifferences about the goings-on during the time we all attended pvbc together and after my leaving that church, I know full well their walk with God and i see them being blessed greatly for their faith and walk with God. And as it goes the times i have seen mike sullivant in public he has avoided me like the plague as well, hmmm seems like there is a problem with that to me, if a person that is deemed demon opressed/posessed is walking by the pastor who "diagnosed" them you would think that he would say something refering to matter at hand, am i right? Or could it be that when he so-called "diagnosed" me with this, that he was really not telling me the truth at that time, and was testing his power of being the pastor. You know, at that time i was 13 years old, i was baptized into pvbc and i attended church regularly. How many of you pvbcer's can imagine at age 13 being dragged into the pastors office and being told that you had demons that needed to be cast out. Do you know what my response was? I laughed at at mike and told him that only thing around there that was close to being the devil was him, because i saw how he was starting to split my family up. The things that man has done to my family...... all i can say is my heart weeps for that man when he is held accountable in front of God for all the souls he has led astray. I do not wish any evil upon mike at all, for what a man soweth so shall he reap, Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your WRATH: His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the WRATH of the Almighty.I pray that he will see the errors of his way before it is too late. Signed: Larry Joseph Brownsberger

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:16

I have never heard of someone praying that Satan would have his way with those that are under "Church Discipline". but I have heard it prayed that they would come to the end of themselves.

It is truly amazing that the Church that supposedly hates the people it disciplines would continue to pray for their fellowship to be restored. that sure looks like hate to me. (excuse the sarcasm)

Anonymous said...

No one has answered the question yet. How many people that have been church disciplined have had restored fellowship with PVBC?

I think I know what the answer is, but if anyone has an accurate answer I would love to hear it.

You may think you are church disciplining for a good reason, but the truth is that Mike does not want these people to tell there side of the story. Mike does not want these people back in the church; it is too risky for him. It's just not worth the risk. That is why when they are disciplined, they are hurt so emotionally, they don't ever want to go back. Sounds like a good way to keep people quiet to me.

Anonymous said...

Larry Joseph Brownsberger, how are you related to Helen?

Anonymous said...

Yes, they prayed for satan to have their way with the individual being prayed for. It was a man who's last name starts with E. who prayed the prayer. I remember looking up and feeling like that wasn't quite right. It's a good way to indirectly send a message to those there as well. Leave or do something wrong and we'll pray for the devil to get you too! It was just weird. That's when I started wondering if the person had been loved on at all before being prayed for in that way. Deny it happens, it doesn't matter, it's still true.

Anonymous said...

3:55

In the last 20 years I can't remember one. But maybe there was and I'm not aware of it. The only ones who returned were ones who left or resigned than came back. But that number is also small. Maybe 4 or 5 families and that's guessing high.

Anonymous said...

what wording did this mr E.nigma use when he was asking for these bad things to fall on the common public? Please be specific. Do you have a reference date for when this happened? Who all was there? Did anyone object? What where your inner feelings-- your emotions telling you? Could you see any of these transactions visibly? Was it spooky?

Anonymous said...

Hope. Could you please tell me which last name could not serve in the church? My I have NEVER heard of anything like this. Stats show that in most churches there are only 10% of the people doing all the work. Do ALL of them have this policy? My my I sure hope you could keep up and do ALL that was needing to get done.Now that you are gone who is the poor slave???

Anonymous said...

9:57 aka heartless pvbc'er as I already stated,

It wasn't a prayer over the common public (whatever that means), it was a prayer directed at someone who was on the rededication list. Just like you I've sat through a many prayer services so you'll have to forgive me for not jotting down the date and time as I never realized at the time I'd need it to prove anything later on. I already said what the person prayed, "for satan to have his way with the person mentioned".

I'm so thankful to God right now for showing me a way out. Not everyone there is cruel like you, but now that I've seen the wicked spirits and true feelings of church members about people who've left or refuse to come at all I'm so glad I'm not there. So glad.

Anonymous said...

Gary is in Ontario running his own church and Jeff Friesen is the new assistant Pastor at PVBC. I would like to know the truth not just heresay but it's so hard to believe what you read because no one has any physical evidence. yeah they may have personal one on one experience but in this day and age it's one's word against anothers. Now a days you have to have physical proof. For example: I have heard, that Pastor has once married a couple that was previously divorced. This was I guess in the early years of PVBC. Anyway, he apparently refused to marry divorcees after that ONLY because it was frowned upon by the mennonite community. So you see my dilema here? You hear stories but no actual physical proof! What's a person suppose to believe anymore?

Anonymous said...

Jeff Friesen is an Associate Pastor not an Assistant Pastor there is a difference. that means he has the same authority in the Church as Mike Sullivant.

Anonymous said...

He does not have the same authority, nor will he ever. IF for some reason he is on the same level, he will be held equally liable for what's gone on here.

Anonymous said...

6:02
Thank you, that's what I thought.
It seems obvious that if things were done by the bible, then there would be some 'fruit' of their actions. If this is not working, then you need to try something else. I know it's a strange idea, but try seeing what the Bible has to say, you might see better results.

Anonymous said...

Larry Joseph Brownsberger, how are you related to Helen? Are you her dad?

Anonymous said...

Is she your dad?

One Anonymous to Another said...

Anonymous said...
"Larry Joseph Brownsberger, how are you related to Helen? Are you her dad?"
30 March, 2011 6:43 PM

LOL! It was already answered for you. I hope you are better at reading your Bible in context than you are at reading blogs. ;)

"...Helen Neufeld is my sister..."
Signed: Larry Joseph Brownsberger
29 March, 2011 4:35 AM

John Reimer said...

Wow I finally see the light! wait is it God or is it a higher authority ? A Pastor ? who is man that he dares place himself with up on a pedestal? Whoa to him that Dares stand up agaisnt the Good work that HE (GOD) has begun in each believer. Be Carefull what you call a work of the Devil,obviously you do not know what a work of God is !Demon possessed or oppressed ? Do you not that "GOD'S Children have been Bought and Paid for by the work on the CROSS ?Sound's Like lies Straight from the Devil's Mouth ! Jesus Challenged authority in his day's And I do to ! Just because you may be a so called ordained minister don't mean squat to me ! or Dare I challenge another TITLE " REVEREND " so and so. Little do they know you fools (ONLY GOD HIMSELF IS REVEREND )I'm not one to call someone a "FOOL" but in this case I know I'm right ! Some simple Rules : Respect should never be demanded,it is something that is earned ! The Truth only Hurts if it ought to !The kingdom Of GOD is not complicated .God said it was simple enough for a child to understand ! So for you High and mighty well learned people "Stop Complicating it ! " How Free Did God Really Set you When he said he would set you free ?...... free from Everything ! unless you can see that you are still living in bondage ! it's what you choose to do with that freedom that matter's ! it's not a matter of rules and regulations do's and dont's or dictatorship trying to force or cause people to act out of fear ! That's not what it means to fear GOD to Fear GOD means to Respect and or honor him. Think about it how can you get close and have an intimate relationship with with someone you are fearful or afraid of ? So for pastors remember respect is earned you don't or should not demand it !

Anonymous said...

To: Anonymous said...
Larry Joseph Brownsberger, how are you related to Helen? Are you her dad?

30 March, 2011 6:43 PM

If you would have actually read "ALL" OF MY POST!, You would see that it states that Helen Neufeld is my sister! One more time so you don't forget she is my sister and i am NOT her dad! I'm starting to think that the majority of the pvbcer's that read and comment on these pages only read a little of each post and only what they want to hear, seems funny usually you make informed choices or acusations when you read "ALL" the facts that are listed. signed; larry joseph brownsberger

Anonymous said...

I want to let people at pembina know that the roots of pembina are felt in other communities throughout the world. To the detriment of Christ cause, pastors are being trained to be just like Michael Sullivant. They don't question his authority and preach the following message from the pulpit "Whenever MS said something I just did it I didn't have to pray about it". These men are being trained to be yes men and are trying to train others to do likewise. They use psychology from the pulpit to preframe people to believe they should be followed without being Bereans. It all sounds great from the pulpit follow Christ as I follow Christ but when you choose to follow Christ over man watch out, the shunning. Pembina is an old boys club and if you’re not a yes man you’re shunned. You don't even have to question something regarding doctrine it can be something that is not doctrinal, you can even have scripture to back up what you’re saying. We are hurting Christians being affected by Permian’s influence.

Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Laura I'm deeply saddened about your situation and your shunning experience. I can’t imagine how someone can do that to their own daughter even if you were in rebellion. Its pride and MS realizing he could no longer be pastor of the church if his daughter did not follow the letter of the law exactly as he wanted. He was willing to sacrifice his own daughter to keep his reputation. Shame on you Michael Sullivant be sure your sin will find you out and it’s coming out and will continue to come out of the woodwork.

Laura we were told that someone from the church corrupted you and your father was blameless. What heresy and it goes far beyond pembina that story is being told by students who setup satellite pembina’s throughout the country. Shame on you Michael Sullivant, Shame on you Michale Sullivant Jr and all the Yes Men.

Anonymous said...

Larry Joseph Brownsberger...you say you were 13 at the time...was this a misprint or were you really only 13? Just wondering and trying to figure it out. I am not the same poster as above.

Anonymous said...

That is true (31 march,2011 10:11am)

Hmmm Sounds like another of my family members(30 march, 2011 11:00 PM), one can never be sure now can they? I can say one thing though our family is Not happy with what has gone on at pvbc and what still goes on while some of our family members are still attending there.

To the pvbc : please keep this up, lol it seems my family "CAN'T" be shut down by m.s i see it go the opposite way, getting stronger, finding truths, standing firm in their faith in God almighty.

I will reapeat myself on this until it happens: I want my sister and her children back from the stranglehold of the pvbc and i will never give up on them either, until that day they are released from the bondage they are in i will fight for them. signed Larry Joseph Brownsberger

Anonymous said...

In response to the question on PVBC bill-board, "Is there enough evidence to prove that you're a Christian?", the answer is in the Bible: "...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved... ." (Acts 16:31)

Anonymous said...

To Larry Joseph Brownsberger,
I just wanted to let you know that I am proud of you and how you are fighting for your sister and her children. Keep up the fight!!

John Reimer said...

From the "Pastor to the Pasture" I know I would not last long or be welcomed if I would ever have attended this .... It's Truly a shame to see how few people "Know God and their identity in him"And from reading these blogs even worse to say that a so called Pastor has lost his way !It's not to late for him but the amount of damage already done should never have happened.All the people,Friends, and Families that have been hurt, and or Families that have been destroyed.All this stems from power and or control over the people ! Dictatorship,leadership or any other place of authority,demanding: respect,obedience,honor,tithing,or demanding your absolute commitment.These are things that are results of - our love for God and wanting to do what is good and pleasing for him and for "Gods Kingdom" not mans ! and they should "NEVER BE DEMANDED !" Demanding = Bondage,and Bondage seems to be a common way of preaching in this area ! Christ told us to give freely.don't give because the pastor told you to, because then we are not giving out of a cheerful and true heart.Which Christ said then he would rather that you not give ! Give for the right reasons people ! I message that I'm sure would not go over well with a lot of pastors. But that's OK It's time people "know the truth"and not just have some fool in front of the pulpit yelling "Do you tithe" that's not God's --way it's mans.It is sure to put pressure on them to wondering where their next paycheck will be coming from to !If you as a pastor are truly right with God then you should have no reason to worry !God said "He would supply all of your needs" Right " It will also help to humble the Pastor and make sure that he is in right standing with God ! So "Stop blaming the people pastor and Stop telling or demanding them to tithe.The people should be giving out of a willing heart not because the uumm pastor is telling them to .Remember it's a result of them wanting to not something that is enforced or demanded ! "Oooh so Spiritually ignorant' and immature and thinking they are so wise.Just like Paul when he visited one town and was expecting growth but to his disappointment saw how Spiritually Immature the
church still was ! Some things just never seem to change !

Anonymous said...

I pray that God will keep my sister and her children safe and from harms way during this battle, She used to be a fighter and strongly believed in God and his teachings, i can't be sure of that anymore because i do not know what all has been done to her while attending pvbc.her husband was/is a deacon there and it's not that i don't like him or anything like that, but the iniquities of a husband/father of his household needs to be brought to an end by HIM, and i do not see that happening anytime soon. We used to be a very close-knit family and God blessed us all for it. I believe if we were all to resolve our issues and become unified like we once were we would not even begin to be able to fathom the extent of our blessings as a whole. I have had many sleepless nights from fighting this battle, God alone has given me the strength and the knowledge to continue on in this endeavor. Most of the people i know really have no clue of how humble and passionate my relationship is with God, most do not understand it, to somewhat simplify my relations with God is; he is the air that i breath, I cannot function one second without him, I am humble towards him for i have sinned and will sin and have/will come short of the glory of God.He is my father who watches over and guides me, he is brother whom i can rely on, he is my best friend in whom i can confide anything. He understands my frustration towards him when i lack the knowledge to understand his teachings. He is my lighthouse when i am lost and cannot find my way. He is my sole provider, he discplines me when i turn away from him and he will never leave me with out hope. He has blessed me with the ability to view the spiritual realm which he has created as a safeguard for us. Most of all he has proven to me even though he didn't have to that no matter how far i strayed from him as long as i did not renounce the Holy Spirit, that when i asked his son Jesus Christ to come into my heart and life that meant i was saved no matter what. Praise God! signed: Larry Joseph Brownsberger

Anonymous said...

Good grief, 7:48 pm. "And from readingthese blogs even worse to say that a so called Pastor has lost his way." That is all it will take for you to believe the garbage said? WHy don't you ask him? Of course we don't give cause the pastor told us to. We give because the Bible tells us to. Don't hate the messenger. You don't like preaching from the Bible? You don't like the truth being preached for what it is without the extra fluff and rose colored "glass. "Give if you want to" is want your stand sounds like. WHo cares if we want to. The Bible clearly tells us to give. Why is this such an issue with you? Any good preacher will preach Bible giving, not because they want to make sure they have an income, but because a Christian who is not giving is not obeying the Scripture and won't be blessed as he could be. He's preaching it for thier sakes. Had it ever dawned on you that the pastor tithes and give offerings as well? DO you honestly think you are being wise?

LBJ said...

Phi 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

Phi 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Phi 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Phi 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Phi 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

Phi 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

Phi 4:16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

Phi 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

Phi 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

Phi 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Attention John Reimer said...
I believe this is the passage to which you loosely referred in your post. The promise is not to Paul (the preacher here) but to the Philippian believers. The promise you referenced is conditional as Paul goes through how the Church gave to missions (vs 14,15,16) in that they looked after Paul's needs. So, yeah, to have your needs looked after as you imply- in accordance with this promise, you need to give to your local Church. And it is OK for the Pastor to preach these verses.

John Reimer said...

To you that think you are so .... wise ? Do you not know that the Devil himself quoted scripture to Jesus ? Your ignorance of why people should be doing,giving, or acting on any account is far from being what God's ways are ! You are still stuck in legalism and under the influence of dictatorship,and are truly the one stuck in "Bondage" something that Christ came to set us free of ! So stop and "know the truth and stop listening to the lies the evil one and him influencing people people into believing lies and false doctrines.Some day you to will see the light and see how Free Christ has set all his Children.Dumb thing is Most of his sheep are ignorant.Example being Christ said he came to set us Free and he said that when the spirit came that we would be free indeed! So may I ask you How Free are you ? or are you still Caught in the clutches of the evil one and his miss led regime denying the works and promises of God to each believer ? Another question or point I have is this: What Oh all ye wise and high learned ones of self righteousness,what do you think would happen if there were no Bibles in this world ?
would you to now be lost? What may I ask was the reason God gave us the "Holy Spirit" ? He is our teacher and God himself said ye need not that any man teach you lest he should boast ! Oh I know all to well this ruckus a reply like this makes ! I'm Reminded of the religious leaders of Christ's time and how they in their well thought wisdom tried to trick Jesus,but he saw through their evil schemes and tactics.Oh foolish ones.Jesus came to show and live the "Gospel" (Good News )not bring people back under the bondage of the ways in the Old Testament.So Many People still try to earn "God's favor" and some will never experience the Freedom that he gave them rather they will listen to the lies preached to them coming across the pulpit just because he is a so called Pastor.There are real versions out there of "REAL PASTORS"But in this area Very Few ! To many messages that keep people stuck in "bondage" Thank God that some are starting to see and realize the truth.There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between "Religion and Gospel" NO they are not the same thing ! Religion is what Christ came to set us free from ! Gospel is to be and is what sets us free,and this is what most believers can't seem to fathom much less understand and therefore end up living a Life of Bondage.Religion will "Always" put you in bondage,because you will always end up falling short and or missing the mark.No man other than Christ has ever Fulfilled the law, or ever will.That's why Christ Came to set us free ! So few people seem to grasp this Good News,rather they believe and live under the law. WAS THE WORK OF CHRIST DONE IN VAIN ? IF not then why do you keep living as defeated and trying to earn God's favor ? Do you still not realize that you already have his favor,and all the blessings and riches as well ?Riches need not necessarily pertain to money but is not limited to.The religious leaders in Christ"s time kept preaching law and Bondage,and that was what Christ and his followers were trying to do away with (Living under the law )
The Bible is not about a bunch of do's and dont's But rather about the love of God and the relationship he want's with people and the Good news of the work of Christ and Salvation.God Want's to act and live our lives out of love for him and his people.Jesus himself if he were here in the flesh today would not be welcomed in a lot of churches for they would not recognize him for his ways or teachings,and would be an outcast ! Bold Statement? but all to true !

Anonymous said...

I can't tell you how tired I am of pastors putting people into bondage with Malachi 3:8. If they would PREACH THE WORD, you know, like verse by verse, line upon line, precept upon precept, they would also preach Malachi 1:1 which says: The burden of the word of the Lord TO ISRAEL by Malachi. Tithing is not for the new testament church. Giving is. There is a difference.

http://pulpit-pimps.org/essays/tithing.pdf

Anonymous said...

LBJ, where do you see that God's provision is conditional upon giving to the church? That is not in the text you cited.

John Reimer said...

Dear anonymous since you don't seem to have a backbone to make a stand and use your name.And I hope that whoever approves or disapproves of this posting will have the understanding to post it.If not you are no better than what some Churches do and just ignore problems or are in denial of mentioning things.I hope they are not as closed minded as some individuals are. some anonymous asked "You don't like preaching from the Bible ? Yes I do But stop Preaching Bondage ! GOD HATES IT and so do I !Give because you want to is Right ! not just because the Bible tells us to. Yes it does say to give and I will not argue that point !But it Says to give out of a cheerful and willing heart.Will I can say some do not give out of,but if they truly search their hearts are giving grudgingly,and Not giving for the right reasons.Yes give if you want to is right! search your heart why are you giving ? are you feeling obligated to give ?Pressured to give ? My Stand as you call it is "Biblical" time that you learned and understood how the truth seems to get twisted, and I "Know all to well that you think I am" that's fine,Problem is like I said earlier you are the one that's in Bondage not me.That's what it means to be free ! Give out of a "true and willing heart" period !no well it says i should so i give.You still have not seen or understand the meaning of giving freely ! ohh that sounds so reckless and non committing makes most people cringe.Fine stick to your Bondage,its like cattle being set out to pasture from a barn but insist on staying in the barn.Little do they know what is waiting for them outside but no they wont go .So it is with people,stay in your comfort zone and legalistic ways and traditions never challenging anything and they never get to live in freedom. The freedom God gave them and deny (and stay in the barn like cattle)their freedom Leaving the work Christ did for us in vain,for they no not what he all did for them so so don't get to experience the fullness of their freedom.They may experience some but not not the fullness of it.God is good to all be it Believer or non believer and has no favorites. I wish more people would use their real names while making posts ! TAKE A STAND

LBJ said...

simple... read context. Really, it is not that hard. The people communicated to Paul's needs (giving to missions) and Paul said directly thereafter that God would give them this promise in question. Stumble at the simple stuff.

John Reimer said...

nicely put pulpit pimp ! the problems is they cant preach effectively about something they themselves cannot fathom so they return to their roots of bondage ! Interesting URL that you have... Lol

Anonymous said...

LBJ, Paul says that they gave to his need, and God will supply their needs. It does not follow that if they hadn't given that God would abandon them in their need. Even if we are faithless, God remains faithful.

The problem is that you are coming at this with a preconceived idea in your head, and ASSUMING that the text says what you THINK it says.

1234 said...

I asked these questions in the comment section of Laura's blog sometime back and no one had the courage to answer me so I am posting them here because it seems there are a few men posting here right now who might have the courage.

#1 - Why do the Baptists believe that alcohol is a sin?

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a wine bibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Are you calling Jesus a sinner?

#2 - Where in the Bible do you find that women have to wear skirts?

Duet 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Back in Jesus day everyone wore long 'dresses' therefore are you saying that the men were wearing woman's clothing?

#3 - Why do you not keep the Sabbath day holy?
Since you take the tiny verse from Duet about not wearing men's clothing and make it into such a big deal why do you not then do so with all the verses in the Bible? What about Exodus 20:8?

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The sabbath day is not Sunday.. it's from sun down Friday until sun down Saturday.

I could go on and on but we will start here.

Anonymous said...

Dear 1234,
I too, would like to know the answer to these questions.
I attend PVBC, and I cannot give the answers to you.
It seems we are good at picking and choosing, eh?
We condemn alcohol, but what about the sin of gluttony? Hmmm...
Good thought provoking questions. Looking forward to the answers. Although, I'm sure they will be twisted explanations, if we get any at all!

Anonymous said...

2:15

why do you attend PVBC?

Jason Sterk said...

To answer one question for you, this is a direct quote from Micheal Sullivant Jr. about drinking alcohol. It was sent to me by email from him a while back. I hope this helps answer at least one of your questions. It is a copy and paste of an email from him.

Micheal Sullivant Jr. said....

As for drinking, we disagree. We are commanded in Ephesians 5 to be filled with or controlled by the Holy Spirit, not beer/wine/liquor (bwl). I have a friend who was an air traffic controller for 20 years, and they were not allowed to work in the tower if they had consumed even one beer within eight hours of their shift. Why? Because their judgment would be affected by just one beer. I also believe that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil, and I think it is safe to say that a lot of evil in society is done under the influence of bwl. Another principle of scripture is found in Philippians 1:10-11 “That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” I think it is safe to say that bwl does not bring out the best in people, does it? The goal of my life is to please, praise and glorify God and I cannot see how drinking has ever helped someone to attain that goal. The illustrations of people in the Bible who used alcoholic wine is replete with terrible storylines murder, rape, and rash decisions they regretted later, etc. No, the Bible does not say, “Thou shalt not drink.” But we are to be wise and Proverbs 20:1 tells us the drinker is not wise. If we are going to follow what is right, it is clear that drinking is not going to help us and will hinder us from our goal. The question we should ask is not, “Is this wrong for me to do?” but, “Is this right?” If our goal is pleasing God, it will be much easier to avoid sin instead of saying “if I do this, how much is too much?”

Anonymous said...

I love this. The question we should ask is not "is this wrong for me to do? but is it right"? WHATS THE DIFFERENCE. They both mean the same thing. Sounds like mike jr twisting of scripture twisted his head a little too much!!

Anonymous said...

I have another question/comment to add to the one's 1234 had, baptists make such a big deal that women must wear skirts, yet they publicly make fun of women of the mennonite faith that where head coverings. (I have seen this for myself) I really don't care what people where, but how is it ok for them to make fun of others????

Anonymous said...

Deut 14:
22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

Psalm 104
15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Anonymous said...

Just like the Pharisees, human traditions and the desire to control people is more important than the revealed word of God. Baptist standards are higher than God's standards. Congratulations!

1234 said...

There are many things that are not good for us. As you mentioned.. over eating. But.. why do the Baptists believe that it's a SIN to drink alcohol? Most churches preach on the passages Mike Jr mentioned.. that we should be consumed with wine, etc. But, the PVBC teaches that it's a SIN to drink alcohol.. to the point that they don't serve it at communion. WHY?

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